18 Replies Latest reply on Apr 11, 2011 5:42 PM by ldieffenbach

    OSIsoft's position on HTML5

      I am one that has never really been bitten by the Silverlight bug and I wonder with the recent comments from Microsoft essentially putting HTML5 ahead of Silverlight , what is OSIsoft's position on this (e.g. Web Parts redevelopment to Silverlight)?  I see all kinds of debates around Silverlight vs HTML5...what do you guys already heavily involved in PI + Silverlight think of the recent comments from Microsoft?

        • Re: OSIsoft's position on HTML5
          Ahmad Fattahi

          I will let the experts chime in on this but to make sure everyone is on the same page here is an excerpt from what Microsoft's president of the Server and Tools Division said recently:

           

          Silverlight continues to have a place for Web application development but acknowledges that HTML5 will have "the broadest cross-platform reach."

           

          You can read a more extensive article here.

           

           

            • Re: OSIsoft's position on HTML5
              MichaelvdV@Atos

              I wasn't all that suprised by Microsoft's change in direction. It already seemed that Silverlight was moving away from being a pure browser plugin, to a development framework for desktop and mobile applications.

               

              I don't think both are really comparable. Silverlight and HTML5 don't offer the exact same functionality. Silverlight should be an enrichment to a richer HTML standard.

               

              In my opinion at this time, is that webapplications for consumers will be more and more in HTML 5, also because the internet is less trusted. For LOB applications (on the internet, but specially the intranet) Silverlight will have a very big role. Developing LOB applications with Silverlight is much more easy than creating them with HTML5 (at this time).

               

              I would expect HTML5 development frameworks to show up to create LOB applications. Then Silverlight could be in more trouble (when it comes to bussiness applications).

               

              Also... .NET vs Javascript, I will take .NET anytime...

                • Re: OSIsoft's position on HTML5

                  Michael @ Atos Origin

                  I wasn't all that suprised by Microsoft's change in direction
                  Hey guys, I would like to suggest a few readings before this debate goes too far...

                   

                  First is this note from Bob Muglia, President of the Server and Tools Division at Microsoft, about HTML5/Silverlight coverage at last week's PDC. Other interesting readings can be found at the bottom of this post by Tim Heuer from Microsoft.

                   

                  Michael @ Atos Origin

                  Also... .NET vs Javascript, I will take .NET anytime...
                  Seems like you're not the only one: I invite you to read this blog post from John Papa (Microsoft), particularly his response to the 2 first comments at the bottom.

                   

                   

                   

                  In summary, this whole debate may be a little overrated/over-covered... to me, Microsoft's position is pretty clear: they are committed to both Silverlight AND HTML5, and think these 2 technologies can/will coexist. My personal opinion goes along the same line, but only time will tell.

                   

                  OSIsoft's position? I know for a fact that the Engineering Leads and Product Managers of the products affected by these technologies, are aware of what's going on and they keep researching on the topic. This includes leveraging our close relationship with Microsoft, to gain insight on where they are headed and where they see the market going. But as far as having an actual 'position'... isn't it a little too early?

                    • Re: OSIsoft's position on HTML5
                      Ahmad Fattahi

                      I agree that Silverlight will live and be supported. But at the same time he adds:

                       

                      "HTML is the only true cross-platform solution for everything including (Apple's) iOS platform." and that "Our strategy has shifted."

                       

                      So, even though Silverlight will be supported, this statement can be very telling to any forward-looking organization.

                        • Re: OSIsoft's position on HTML5

                          Ahmad

                          So, even though Silverlight will be supported, this statement can be very telling to any forward-looking organization.

                           

                           

                          Exactly.  I wonder if Laurie had already rubbed off silverlight from the next generation visualisation tool technology choices for this reason..?

                           

                           

                          • Re: OSIsoft's position on HTML5

                            Ahmad

                            I agree that Silverlight will live and be supported. But at the same time he adds:
                            "HTML is the only true cross-platform solution for everything including (Apple's) iOS platform." and that "Our strategy has shifted."
                            See, that's what I meant by "before the debate goes too far" and "this debate being over-covered"...     Please allow me to reiterate this post by Bob Muglia, who clarified his statements.

                             

                            As I said in my last post, these technologies (at least as we know them today) are complementary - just like HTML(4) and Silverlight are today. Yes, HTML5 will do more than the current HTML and will definitely overlap with some of what Silverlight does, but there areas where Silverlight can indeniably help (remember Silverlight isn't just a way of rendering things ... think about things like running business logic, multitouch, working with or storing large quantities of data, high performance, out-of-the-box controls, etc.).

                             

                            This debate has been going for quite some time and just got bigger with the coverage (or lack thereof) of Silverlight at the Microsoft PDC last week... but nothing fundamentally changed: as always, decision makers need to be aware and study the different technologies available on the market. And again, it's not about HTML5 replacing Silverlight... there wouldn't be enough data right now anyways, to make sound decisions on choosing between these technologies.

                             

                            In closing, I would like to invite you to read this other blog post which, in my opinion, summarizes this whole story (and my personal opinion) very well. I'll even call out a couple parts that I think are especially relevant:

                             

                            Mike Taulty

                            It was interesting (to say the least!) to watch how some fairly innocuous reporting got picked up and then turned into something else by people other than the original reporters who perhaps wanted to promote a slightly phony war between the Silverlight and HTML5 technologies.

                            ...

                             

                            From some of the stories that I’ve seen, I think a lot of confusion stems from people not understanding what Silverlight is.
                            Silverlight is not a replacement for HTML. Silverlight never was a replacement for HTML. Silverlight is a rich internet application technology.

                             

                            And then he talks about Apple's support for both HTML5 and their own APIs and controls, and wrote the following:

                             

                            Mike Taulty

                            I rarely see pronouncements that Apple’s support for HTML5 means that they will kill off other APIs such as their Cocoa (Touch) API.
                            So, again, why this debate over HTML5 and Silverlight?

                              • Re: OSIsoft's position on HTML5
                                MichaelvdV@Atos

                                Steve Pilon

                                (Very good reply)

                                 

                                I agree. SL and HTML5 are not mutually exclusive. Still, some of the functionality of RIA is going to be incorporated into HTML, so that's a big change. This will mean that there is 'less market share' for products like Silverlight. If HTML didn't provide the functionality, Silverlight (and Flash) would be used more. They are not excluding eachother out, but they definitly have overlap.

                                 

                                Steve Pilon

                                So, again, why this debate over HTML5 and Silverlight?

                                 

                                It's fun to do in my opinion, it gives insight and a reason to dive into both technologies. However, it kind of divides developers into two sides when it goes too far.

                                • Re: OSIsoft's position on HTML5
                                  Ahmad Fattahi

                                  Thanks Steve! It was very informative

                                   

                                  Steve Pilon

                                  why this debate over HTML5 and Silverlight?

                                   

                                  I think many of us, at least myself, are learning as we debate; that to me is good enough of a reason to hold this debate

                                   

                                  Another point is that it'd be good to know and discuss the strengths and strategic values of each technology as well as their future directions. It doesn't necessarily mean that we anticipate the demise of Silverlight. For example, Muglia talks a lot about media delivery and mobile device features around Silverlight in the future; at the same time HTML5 will have the widest reach across several platforms. It's to me worthwhile spending time to discuss these trends and distinguish capabilities.

                                   

                                  Just my two cents

                                   

                                   

                                    • Re: OSIsoft's position on HTML5

                                      @Michael: Absolutely, HTML and Silverlight/Flash are complementary and HTML5 = less market share for Silverligh/Flash and the likes. That means Microsoft, Adobe and others will need to keep innovating big time, to try and keep up with the market.

                                       

                                      @Michael & Ahmad: Agreed, debating is good and helps learning in most cases - keep those great discussions coming, everybody!

                                        • Re: OSIsoft's position on HTML5
                                          Ahmad Fattahi

                                          Agreed

                                           

                                          This article was posted in February this year but summarizes lots of current technologies pretty nicely.

                                            • Re: OSIsoft's position on HTML5
                                              Lonnie Bowling

                                              Great thread and discussion!  I have been doing a lot of thinking and research into this area for awhile.  I have invested a big chunk of my time in the last year learning Silverlight and felt pretty good with the strong backing from Microsoft.  But this HTML5 thing has kept nagging since day one, and now is more of a rumble.  I would love to think that Silverlight is the answer for all that I want to do, but it is not.  I can’t really deploy to the mobile realm (ie iPhone and Android), except when windows phone 7 comes out, and then only to that platform.  Microsoft has been very slow to release any silverlight pluggins, and after watching the PDC10 speech, I see why.  I think silverlight on android has a good chance of happening, but forget about the iPhone.

                                               

                                              Bottom line, right now I can’t deploy anything in the mobile world that has a chance of being cross-device compatible, yuck.

                                               

                                              I think Silverlight is the bomb for developing applications and it make me sick to think I have to use something else like HTML5/Java to get good support in the mobile sector, but that is what I’m seeing right now.  I’m now learning HTML5 so I can get my solutions deployed on most of the mobile devices in the future.  I think that a PC centric internet is rapidly coming to an end and I want to be ready.  I will stick to Silverlight for heavy duty browser applications where it has its place, at least for now.  But I really wonder where it will be in 5 years.

                                               


                                              All of this really sucks for us developers and I for one will be happy when Microsoft comes out with a killer HTML5 developer studio that can help us .Net folks leverage our C# and VB code/skills into this world.  Think of expression blend for HTML5…

                                               

                                              Anyway, it is a big topic and I think everyone should be paying attention, because, at least in the mobile realm, there is a battle and HTML5 looks to be the clear front runner, which does not thrill me.

                                    • Re: OSIsoft's position on HTML5
                                      MichaelvdV@Atos

                                      Steve Pilon

                                      Seems like you're not the only one: I invite you to read this blog post from John Papa (Microsoft), particularly his response to the 2 first comments at the bottom.

                                       

                                      That expresses my feelings exactly:

                                       

                                      JS+HTML+CSS rocks! Why learn a new technology when its limited to MSFT, HTML is universal php/ruby etc..and u evolve as a hard code web developer. As long as we develop solutions for Web HTML isn't going anywhere and in that case better jump on the HTML bandwagon instead of SL

                                       

                                      Response:

                                       

                                      "JS+HTML+CSS rocks"? Seriously? Have you actually used any of those technologies? Each one is worse than the last! HTML is ridiculous, a conglomeration of document markup hacked together over years and repurposed into an application language which is hilariously difficult to work with. Javascript (much like Ruby/PHP) is a terrible language which allows all sorts of ridiculous things in the name of developer expediency, but in actuality destroys all maintainability of the codebase. And CSS... holy hell. I don't even know where to begin with just how bad CSS is as a technology. Ugh. I'll take Silverlight over that mess any day of the week and twice on sundays. Hell I'll even take flash over that stuff, but I have to subtract points for ActionScript, which is almost as flawed as Javascript.

                                       

                                      He is hitting the nail on the head with this one. HTML and Javascript are abominations of markup/programming languages compared to C# and XAML. I really don't get it, it's about the same with PHP. What experienced programmer in his right mind would use a language like this, if you have access to languages like C# and Python. Javascript and PHP specifically is about all that can be wrong with a modern programming language.

                                       

                                      The Mono project is doing a great job implementing the C# Compiler and the CLR for non-windows OS's. Moonlight ('Mono's Silverlight' is already hitting SL 3 support). Support for Android is comming. I don't see why SL would be 'dead' because of this focus shift. Both technologies fill certain requirements.

                                       

                                      HTML is the only true cross-platform solution for everything including (Apple's) iOS platform.

                                       

                                      This. This is what's happening. Apple and iOS are getting bigger then Microsoft. If they don't hop on now, they will lose a very big market share. Besides, it's nonsense. Technology wise, Silverlight (of flash) could run on these platforms, it's a political thing. Apple has committed to HTML5, and has let the world know that they are blocking other technologies. This is the primary reason of the focus shift in my opinion.

                                       

                                       

                                      icon-quote.gifAhmad:

                                       

                                       

                                      So, even though Silverlight will be supported, this statement can be very telling to any forward-looking organization.

                                       

                                       

                                       

                                       

                                      Exactly.  I wonder if Laurie had already rubbed off silverlight from the next generation visualisation tool technology choices for this reason..?

                                       

                                      I really see no reason why they would possible want to switch technologies. If you invest in HTML5 now, the resources needed to develop something like this will go trough the roof. Silverlight is a mature framework, HTML5 + Javascript is not at this time. HTML5 is far from accepted at this point.

                                       

                                      Source

                                       

                                      Ian Hickson, editor of the HTML5 specification, expects the specification to reach the Candidate Recommendation stage during 2012.[8] The criterion for the specification becoming a W3C Recommendation is “two 100% complete and fully interoperable implementations”.[8] In an interview with TechRepublic, Hickson guessed that this would occur in the year 2022 or later.[9]