34 Replies Latest reply on Nov 27, 2013 2:04 PM by Gregor

    vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions

      Dear PI Geeks,

       

      We hope many of you are looking forward to this year's vCampus Live! event already. We are and we are working on event preparation a while already.

       

      Last year we offered white boards to suggest topics for Vox Pop sessions and to vote for them. We recognized that this wasn’t working pretty well and decided to follow a different approach this year.

       

      Please start suggesting what you would like to discuss about at vCampus Live! 2013 Vox Pop sessions.

       

      At a later time (not defined yet) we will summarize suggestions in a list and ask for your votes.

       

      Please take this first suggestion from product management as incentive: Storing data with future timestamps in PI Data Archive

        • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions
          Ahmad Fattahi

          What's up with RESTful access to PI System?

            • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions

              Agree....what's up with OData? Don't let v1 be read only.

               

              When on earth will we get Coresight extensibility?

               

              Server Side Fanning. Oh yes let's talk about that!

               

              In memory, big data analytics. E.g. SAP HANA.

                • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions
                  Ahmad Fattahi

                  More ideas anyone?

                    • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions
                      espo89

                      I'll second all of Rhys's ideas and add one of my own.   PI in the cloud, whether that is in Azure or Amazon or a product from OSI.

                        • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions

                          After seeing it under the hood at EMEA UC...PI Server future data. I think some people may be surprised at how its (potentially) going to be implemented. (Extension of what Gregor mentioned at the beginning)

                           

                          AF Server security changes: "AF Identities" and "AF Mappings". Maybe generalise the topic to how AF Server is going to become the repository for all application related configuration/security/... in the future.

                           

                          Controversial one: expiration date of ProcessBook enhancements, or the application itself.

                           

                          Non-time indexing in the PI Server archives.

                            • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions
                              dvacher

                              Rhys, thank you for attending our Users Conference in Paris, I definitely enjoyed our conversations.  For the benefits of people who weren't there, would you be able to expand on how you think people will be surprised by future data storage in the upcoming PI Server?  By the way, our fundamental design is quite firm, what you saw wasn't a prototype but a preview of our development build.  Thanks again for all the great feedback.

                                • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions

                                  Sure Denis. Feel free to correct if I misunderstood anything.

                                   

                                  My personal assumption was that we would get something like the image below, which I knocked up in a thread back in 2011. I guess I haven't been able to get that set-up out of my mind.

                                   

                                  future_5F00_subsystem.jpg

                                   

                                  http://vcampus.osisoft.com/discussion_hall/generic_forums/f/13/t/2015.aspx?pi1172=1

                                   

                                  Future data in PIThe fundamental concept I had was anything beyond the snapshot is considered future, uncompressed data that is pushed through the snapshot as it becomes current after which time it is subjected to exception reporting (from the future subsystem perspective) and then compression if applicable. This is sort of in line with some solutions I've seen out there that simply sync data stored in SQL as it becomes current.

                                   

                                  However, that's not what we'll be getting. We are getting the start of a really cool feature called point partitioning which has tremendous benefits, but I'll not focus too much on that for now. Future data is handled in separate archive files from the "regular" archives so the data considered future is stored in different archive files from the rest of time series data. Couple of good points to this:

                                   

                                  - You can store your future data, aka forecast data, in different archives and apply different retention strategies. For example, keep forecast data for the last year but keep actual data indefinitely. I think this is great, and looks good for further separating data in future versions of the PI Server.

                                   

                                  - Future data is uncompressed. 

                                   

                                  This does bring me onto what I think will surprise people:

                                   

                                  - Future data is considered in terms of a classification of the data, and not as an extension into the future of real-time data. What I mean is future data that becomes current is still considered distinctly different from the regular data that arrived in real-time.

                                   

                                  - You cannot natively have a single tag that contains current/snapshot data, historic data and future data. They have to be 2 separate tags. This is focused around the "actual vs forecast" concept.

                                   

                                  - With the current snapshot system you can drift 10 minutes into the future. That will remain, we won't get the ability to drift further than that.

                                   

                                  That about covers it...be interesting to see if that does indeed surprise the community, or just me.

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                    • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions
                                      dvacher

                                      Thanks for the detailed clarifications --you definitely got the essence of the design choices we made.

                                       


                                      I just want to correct one point on compression of future data: this will still be possible.  However, we're considering turning it off by default for future data points.  We most certainly welcome everyone's feedback on this.  Go DeLorean!

                                        • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions

                                          Denis Vacher

                                            Go DeLorean!

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                          I'm just glad you made sure Marty was on a hover board for authenticity sake.

                                            • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions
                                              Roger Palmen

                                              Rhys, Denis,

                                               

                                              Thanks for your excellent explanation. I always liked your excellent picture about future data architecture in PI Server as it seemed to be the most simple and thereby the best way to build this functionality.

                                               

                                              Future data in a separate partition: It does surprise me. It is indeed different than expected. I guess i'm still stuck with my AF attributes that combine history (pi tags) with forecasts (AF time-series table lookups) for time-based calculations and summaries. E.g. combining history and future plan data: what is the Last Best Estimate average flow for the current calendar year?

                                               

                                              I would still see some benefit of being able to feed future data into history when time passes, and overwrite when history is available. "Stick to the plan until you have something better". But then again, you could implement such behaviour much better in e.g. a PI Point DataReference where you can control the actual logic to be applied, and do not mess with the raw data.

                                               

                                              Compression on future data points: well, technically it would make sense, but you never know which events from the future you have missed. Future does not behave to the same rules as history thus compression would make less sense. History builds according to a linear line of timel, future is created at any point in time, and future data might change when time moves on. I know this sounds a bit fuzzy, hope it makes some sense. E.g. monthly forecasts, replaced by weekly and daily forecasts when future comes nearer? Secondly i doubt if most future datasets that will be used will have such a high data rate that compression would really be needed.

                                               

                                              Unfortunately did not notice that hood in Paris, glad you found it and looked and shared what you saw beneath!

                                                • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions

                                                  Roger Palmen @ CGI

                                                   But then again, you could implement such behaviour much better in e.g. a PI Point DataReference where you can control the actual logic to be applied, and do not mess with the raw data.

                                                   

                                                  This is a good point. It would be wonderful to be able to reliably use this approach, but until an AFAttribute completely replaces a PIPoint and OSIsoft clients only know about AFAttributes (the PI Server becomes a piece of infrastructure again and not an application server) then we'll not be able to get to that world any time soon. Custom applications can do that now, but OSIsoft supplied tools will always circumvent such set-ups.

                                                    • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions

                                                      Dear PI Geeks,

                                                       

                                                      Please allow me to summarize the current suggestions and the amount of votes that I've taken from discussions.

                                                       

                                                      The approach is as follows:

                                                       

                                                      - Everyone at vCampus can suggest a topic
                                                      - The number of votes initializes with 1 because a suggestion is a vote
                                                      - If someone picks up a topic and touches it inside a post within this thread, it's counted a vote
                                                      - "Votes" from OSIsoft employees do not count except with new topics (sorry Denis!).
                                                      - Each individual can only "vote" once for a topic e.g. Rhys posts about future data in PI Data Archive count with only one vote (sorry Rhys!)

                                                      #

                                                      Topic

                                                      suggested by

                                                      votes

                                                      1

                                                      Storing data with future timestamps in PI Data Archive

                                                      OSIsoft PM

                                                      3

                                                      2

                                                      RESTful access to PI System

                                                      OSIsoft vCampus

                                                      1

                                                      3

                                                      Odata (Open Data) access to the PI System

                                                      Rhys @ Wipro

                                                      2

                                                      4

                                                      PI Coresight extensibility

                                                      Rhys @ Wipro

                                                      2

                                                      5

                                                      PI Server side buffering / fanning

                                                      Rhys @ Wipro

                                                      2

                                                      6

                                                      Big Data Analytics (e.g. SAP HANA)

                                                      Rhys @ Wipro

                                                      2

                                                      7

                                                      PI in the cloud

                                                      Randy Esposito

                                                      1

                                                      8

                                                      How PI AF Server is going to become the repository for all application related configuration

                                                      Rhys @ Wipro

                                                      1

                                                      9

                                                      Expiration date of PI ProcessBook enhancements, or the application itself

                                                      Rhys @ Wipro

                                                      1

                                                      10

                                                      Non-time indexing in the PI Server archives

                                                      Rhys @ Wipro

                                                      1

                                                      Please feel encouraged to go on suggesting topics you like to talk about with OSIsoft product managers and developers at vCampus Live! 2013 Vox Pop sessions. Please also discuss about topics suggested so far or just post some numbers from above table.

                                                       

                                                      @Rhys: Can you please elaborate on # 10?

                                                        • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions
                                                          Asle Frantzen

                                                          Votes for 6 and 8 from me, and as an addition to number 6:

                                                           

                                                          One of our clients use business analytics software from SAS Institute, and they now want to involve a company called TeraData with an in-memory data warehouse solution for faster big data analysis. In the workshop we conducted I was there to present the PI System, and almost had to defend its position a few times because the TeraData people came with statements such as "PI is only a few gigs in size, let's put everything in our system instead".

                                                           

                                                          Our client stores everything in PI - there's no compression and hardly any exception filtering going on. When they want to analyze their data in other systems they complain about the time spent to export it through OLEDB and other DA technologies. Maybe discuss the PI System's role in all of this, and also the options for exporting large amounts of data without bumping into problems along the way.

                                                            • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions

                                                              Hello Asle,

                                                               

                                                              Thank you for your votes.

                                                               

                                                              Regarding your addition on item # 6, I know what customer you are talking about. I recall they have 1 or 2 GB of archived data each day because of the reasons you mentioned. The issue is very specific and depends on the way the PI Server is used. Hence I am wondering if the Vox Pop is the right place for this discussion or if it might be a better option to discuss pain points separately e.g. at vCampus Live! 2013 Networking Lounge. Possibly it's even a better option taking the discussion completely offline e.g. under the regime of a partner manager. Please feel free to contact me directly.

                                                                • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions
                                                                  Asle Frantzen

                                                                  Well it was only an example, so the specifics is definitely something we can discuss in another arena but the general thought was that more and more companies interested in data analytics might end up with an in-memory solution - and then it's interesting to discuss the PI System's role.

                                                                  • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions
                                                                    eradwan

                                                                    Hi,

                                                                     

                                                                    Looks like I came late, but anyway, what about Osisoft and Esri integration. Another one which I heard from a PI expert 2 years ago about PI to replace the Isa 95 model in relational DBs for MES based applications.

                                                                     

                                                                    Regards,

                                                                     

                                                                    Emad.

                                                                      • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions

                                                                        Hello Rhys and Asle,

                                                                         

                                                                        You were the only ones voting for # 6 so far. Therefore changing the topic as suggested by you both should work.

                                                                         

                                                                        @Emad & all: It's not too late yet to suggest topics and vote for them. Please let post your suggestions and don't forget to vote for existing ones.

                                                                        #

                                                                        Topic

                                                                        suggested by

                                                                        votes

                                                                        1

                                                                        Storing data with future timestamps in PI Data Archive

                                                                        OSIsoft PM

                                                                        3

                                                                        2

                                                                        RESTful access to PI System

                                                                        OSIsoft vCampus

                                                                        1

                                                                        3

                                                                        Odata (Open Data) access to the PI System

                                                                        Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                        2

                                                                        4

                                                                        PI Coresight extensibility

                                                                        Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                        2

                                                                        5

                                                                        PI Server side buffering / fanning

                                                                        Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                        2

                                                                        6

                                                                        Big Data (in-memory) Analytics (e.g. SAP HANA)

                                                                        Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                        2

                                                                        7

                                                                        PI in the cloud

                                                                        Randy Esposito

                                                                        1

                                                                        8

                                                                        How PI AF Server is going to become the repository for all application related configuration

                                                                        Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                        1

                                                                        9

                                                                        Expiration date of PI ProcessBook enhancements, or the application itself

                                                                        Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                        1

                                                                        10

                                                                        Non-time indexing in the PI Server archives

                                                                        Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                        1

                                                                        11

                                                                        Integration of ESRI with OSIsoft

                                                                        Emad Radwan

                                                                        1

                                                                        12

                                                                        PI to replace the Isa 95 model in relational DBs for MES based applications.

                                                                        Emad Radwan

                                                                        1

                                                                         

                                                                          • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions
                                                                            Ahmad Fattahi

                                                                            In case you are not familiar with our Vox Pop sessions, these are sessions whose topics are decided by the community and not determined in advance. In other words, everybody here, including you , casts their votes for the topics of their interest. We will gather the votes and then have roundtable-type sessions with OSIsoft staff at vCampus Live! 2013. It's your chance to influence the event agenda in favor of your interests!

                                                                              • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions
                                                                                Paurav Joshi

                                                                                Hi,

                                                                                 

                                                                                I would like to here about topic #3 and #6. Becasue thay have big potential for future scope.

                                                                                  • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions

                                                                                    Dear PI Geeks,

                                                                                     

                                                                                    This thread about this years Vox Pop sessions went of my radar. Please accept my apology and find an updated list below:

                                                                                    #

                                                                                    Topic

                                                                                    suggested by

                                                                                    votes

                                                                                    1

                                                                                    Storing data with future timestamps in PI Data Archive

                                                                                    OSIsoft PM

                                                                                    3

                                                                                    2

                                                                                    RESTful access to PI System

                                                                                    OSIsoft vCampus

                                                                                    1

                                                                                    3

                                                                                    Odata (Open Data) access to the PI System

                                                                                    Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                    3

                                                                                    4

                                                                                    PI Coresight extensibility

                                                                                    Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                    2

                                                                                    5

                                                                                    PI Server side buffering / fanning

                                                                                    Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                    2

                                                                                    6

                                                                                    Big Data (in-memory) Analytics (e.g. SAP HANA)

                                                                                    Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                    3

                                                                                    7

                                                                                    PI in the cloud

                                                                                    Randy Esposito

                                                                                    1

                                                                                    8

                                                                                    How PI AF Server is going to become the repository for all application related configuration

                                                                                    Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                    1

                                                                                    9

                                                                                    Expiration date of PI ProcessBook enhancements, or the application itself

                                                                                    Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                    1

                                                                                    10

                                                                                    Non-time indexing in the PI Server archives

                                                                                    Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                    1

                                                                                    11

                                                                                    Integration of ESRI with OSIsoft

                                                                                    Emad Radwan

                                                                                    1

                                                                                    12

                                                                                    PI to replace the Isa 95 model in relational DBs for MES based applications.

                                                                                    Emad Radwan

                                                                                    1

                                                                                    As you can see, 3 favorites are currently sharing first place. I would definitely like to have a more clear picture with a winner, a second and a third place because this would simply look a lot better with the winners ceremony

                                                                                     

                                                                                    If you will attend vCampus Live! 2013 and haven't suggested or voted for your favorite topic yet, please weigh the opportunity of influencing what Vox Pop sessions will be about against the few minutes it takes you to reply.  

                                                                                      • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions
                                                                                        Lonnie Bowling

                                                                                        My vote is for #3 OData, If I get more than one vote, then I also pick #7 and #4.

                                                                                         

                                                                                        Lonnie

                                                                                          • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions

                                                                                            Thank you Lonny,

                                                                                             

                                                                                            You can vote for more than just one topic but we count just one vote per individual and topic.

                                                                                            #

                                                                                            Topic

                                                                                            suggested by

                                                                                            votes

                                                                                            1

                                                                                            Storing data with future timestamps in PI Data Archive

                                                                                            OSIsoft PM

                                                                                            3

                                                                                            2

                                                                                            RESTful access to PI System

                                                                                            OSIsoft vCampus

                                                                                            1

                                                                                            3

                                                                                            OData (Open Data) access to the PI System

                                                                                            Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                            4

                                                                                            4

                                                                                            PI Coresight extensibility

                                                                                            Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                            3

                                                                                            5

                                                                                            PI Server side buffering / fanning

                                                                                            Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                            2

                                                                                            6

                                                                                            Big Data (in-memory) Analytics (e.g. SAP HANA)

                                                                                            Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                            3

                                                                                            7

                                                                                            PI in the cloud

                                                                                            Randy Esposito

                                                                                            2

                                                                                            8

                                                                                            How PI AF Server is going to become the repository for all application related configuration

                                                                                            Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                            1

                                                                                            9

                                                                                            Expiration date of PI ProcessBook enhancements, or the application itself

                                                                                            Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                            1

                                                                                            10

                                                                                            Non-time indexing in the PI Server archives

                                                                                            Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                            1

                                                                                            11

                                                                                            Integration of ESRI with OSIsoft

                                                                                            Emad Radwan

                                                                                            1

                                                                                            12

                                                                                            PI to replace the Isa 95 model in relational DBs for MES based applications.

                                                                                            Emad Radwan

                                                                                            1

                                                                                            OData (# 3) currently sets the pace but I must recognize this is a race. Come on folks: Vote, vote, vote and if you like, suggest

                                                                                              • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions

                                                                                                Hello Rhys,

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                While reviewing the list of topics, I was wondering what you may be thinking of with # 10. Can you please elaborate on this a bit?

                                                                                                  • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions

                                                                                                    I heard a rumour/whisper/drunken rambling, that there is some movement to be able to index data with PI Server archives that is not time-based. For example, you are collecting your data as time series data but one of the elements you are collecting is the real index your interested in using - for example the length within a process. Your interest is more of "what were the properties of the process at Length 'X'". The index would therefore be "Length 1" was recorded at "Time 00:00:00" so the correlation to the other properties would be their value at "Time 00:00:00", and so on.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    Currently you have to calculate and cache this yourself in custom applications/databases. I know there are numerous use cases that OSIsoft already know about, so #10 is really what are OSIsoft doing about that. Whether it be an interface, a PI Server archive "type", function of AF somehow ...

                                                                                                      • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions
                                                                                                        skwan

                                                                                                        Are you looking to index depth?

                                                                                                          • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions

                                                                                                            Yeah, whilst having a concept like Event Frames to define the start and end time of the index...batch like behaviour. It has to be as readily available/fast as the time series data itself.

                                                                                                              • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions

                                                                                                                Gregor, another potential topic. OSIsoft's position on open source development.

                                                                                                                  • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions

                                                                                                                    Dear all,

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                    We still accept topics and votes. Please go on.

                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                    Here's an updated list of topics.

                                                                                                                    #

                                                                                                                    Topic

                                                                                                                    suggested by

                                                                                                                    votes

                                                                                                                    1

                                                                                                                    Storing data with future timestamps in PI Data Archive

                                                                                                                    OSIsoft PM

                                                                                                                    3

                                                                                                                    2

                                                                                                                    RESTful access to PI System

                                                                                                                    OSIsoft vCampus

                                                                                                                    1

                                                                                                                    3

                                                                                                                    Odata (Open Data) access to the PI System

                                                                                                                    Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                                                    4

                                                                                                                    4

                                                                                                                    PI Coresight extensibility

                                                                                                                    Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                                                    3

                                                                                                                    5

                                                                                                                    PI Server side buffering / fanning

                                                                                                                    Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                                                    2

                                                                                                                    6

                                                                                                                    Big Data (in-memory) Analytics (e.g. SAP HANA)

                                                                                                                    Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                                                    3

                                                                                                                    7

                                                                                                                    PI in the cloud

                                                                                                                    Randy Esposito

                                                                                                                    2

                                                                                                                    8

                                                                                                                    How PI AF Server is going to become the repository for all application related configuration

                                                                                                                    Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                                                    1

                                                                                                                    9

                                                                                                                    Expiration date of PI ProcessBook enhancements, or the application itself

                                                                                                                    Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                                                    1

                                                                                                                    10

                                                                                                                    Non-time indexing in the PI Server archives (index depth)

                                                                                                                    Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                                                    1

                                                                                                                    11

                                                                                                                    Integration of ESRI with OSIsoft

                                                                                                                    Emad Radwan

                                                                                                                    1

                                                                                                                    12

                                                                                                                    PI to replace the Isa 95 model in relational DBs for MES based applications.

                                                                                                                    Emad Radwan

                                                                                                                    1

                                                                                                                    13

                                                                                                                    OSIsoft's position on open source development.

                                                                                                                    Rhys @ Wipro

                                                                                                                    1

                                                                                                                    @Rhys: Thank you for your explanation about Non-time indexing.

                                                                                                                      • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions

                                                                                                                        Dear vCampus Live! 2013 attendees,

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        Please allow me to add an update on the rules.

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        - The deadline to suggest topics for vCampus Live! 2013 VOX pop sessions is Friday, 22-Nov-2013.

                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                        - We will accept votes for existing topics until shortly before the VOX pop sessions. white board close to the welcome reception desk.

                                                                                                                          • Re: vCampus Live! 2013 - Vox Pop sessions

                                                                                                                            Dear vCampus Live! 2013 attendees,

                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                            We will accept votes for the existing topics during vCampus Live! 2013 (vCL13). Please look for the white board close to vCL13 reception desk.

                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                            According to the Agenda VOX pop sessions are scheduled for Day 2 (Thursday, December 5th) between 12:15 PM and 14:15 PM

                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                            We plan to

                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                            - publish most voted topics and room assignment for sessions at about 12:00 PM at the white board.
                                                                                                                            - announce sessions in the Lunch area
                                                                                                                            - launch VOX pop sessions at 1:00 PM  hoping everybody is full (and tired)
                                                                                                                            - run sessions for about an hour (plus almost 15 minutes buffer)

                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                            I am looking forward to meeting you at San Francisco